Questions for NIC’s Education Corridor Forum, May 22, 2008 (UPDATED)
Here are the 12 questions I emailed to NIC before the meeting, as instructed. Now you can see how many were not asked and some that were partially answered:
1. There has been information circulating about the possible use of either the Outlet Mall near the Riverbend Research Park or the land you have optioned out on the Prairie, as possible sites for the Ed. Corridor. Are you open to consideration of other locations for the Education Corridor? If not, why? NEVER ASKED
2. The cost of the Stimson/DeArmon Mill site land purchase at $588,200 per acre makes the property one of the most expensive in the whole State. More than half of the land is back away from the riverfront and right near the Sewage Treatment Plant. Do you think paying this price is responsible to the taxpayers and the students who will see their tuition go up? NEVER ASKED
3. If you take Forgone Taxes of $2.4 million dollars, will this be a one-time tax hike for the taxpayers or will this increase your budget and thereby our taxes forever more? A similar sounding question was asked, and the answer is that it will be $2.5 million each year for as long as the Board decides they need it. (read: forever)
4. It’s been stated by one of your Trustees that the Fort Grounds location will accommodate NIC’s growth for the next 10-15 years. Since the Fort Grounds is land-locked, what are your plans past that time frame? NEVER ASKED
5. Why should the taxpayers of Kootenai County fund land for the expansion of 4 year colleges which are the responsibility of the State? There was some comment about other schools that had successfully paired up community colleges with 4 yr. colleges, but no clear answer about the finances.
6. There are public safety concerns about this project: The traffic on NW Blvd and the toxic chemicals delivered to and used by the Sewage Treatment Plant. The Treatment Plant even has Warning Lights on its building to alert the public in case of toxic spills or releases. And the congested nature of the Fort Grounds and NW Blvd traffic would be a nightmare in case an emergency evacuation was necessary. Have you studied these potential safety problems and can you please explain why the public should not be concerned? They talked a bit about traffic entry and exit. That’s all.
7. Does the State Board of Education, which gives money to NIC, as well as the 4 year state colleges, support the purchase of the Stimson/DeArmon Mill site? Have they given any money to help with its purchase? NEVER ASKED (But I know the answer is NO)
8. How much money has LCDC given, pledged or committed to the Education Corridor project? What tax increment, if any, do they plan to get in return? They only asked the part about the increment, which makes no sense without the first part.
9. The University of Idaho and LCSC have both gone on record as saying they will not be land owners or building owners. Who will pay for the buildings to be constructed? Do you plan a private-public partnership with a local development company that will then lease the buildings back to the schools? They only asked how the construction of buildings might be funded.
10. The NIC Board Resolution in Support of Acquisition and Development of the Educational Corridor, a resolution that was unanimously approved in 2007 and again last month, has 19 statements, only 2 of which are related to education. Why would NIC, a community college, include the following points in this resolution as rationale for the purchase of said property: “recreational access”, “commercial development”, “economic development”, “reduce train traffic”, “enhance the value of private property” and “improve the visual entrance to downtown Coeur d’Alene”? They left out the part about 19 statements with only 2 related to education and why a community college would have these elements in their resolution. But they did ask the rest of the question, and the answer was stumbled over by Mic Armon with no clear rationale.
11. Instead of Foregone Taxes, will you bring a Bond levy to the public? This action would limit the time frame of the increased taxation and would give the voters a voice in this decison. If you will not, why? This was simplified to just the Bond part. Mic Armon said there isn’t time to do a Bond. (plus I’m sure they don’t think they can get 66 2/3 % approval)
12. Because North Idaho College is not Coeur d’Alene College, and is responsible to serve all five northern counties, will you establish a collaborative leadership committee to advise your NIC Board on this very major project? Will you include elected officials from all around Kootenai County in order to get input and consensus on this historic expansion of higher education in our region? They left off the CdA College part and the responsible part and the leadership part and the whole last sentence. So Priscilla Bell’s answer was to invite the school’s distance education people from Bonner and Sandpt. to give their input. She thought that would be a good idea. You can see how messing with the questions changes the whole focus. I wanted elected officials who represent the taxpayers.
They are entitled, we are not. End of story. You don’t like it? Too bad.
North Idaho College trustees took a step closer Wednesday to pursuing foregone taxes along with a tuition increase of 7.4 percent to help pay for the proposed education corridor. “It’s something we’re entitled to. Now, we should use it,” trustee Mic Armon said. Trustees passed a resolution formalizing their commitment to find a way to raise $10 million to acquire the 17-acre parcel of land adjacent to the college from developer Marshall Chesrown.
Comment by Pariah — May 22, 2008 @ 8:24 pm
Pariah,
Last night I thought Mr. Armon and Dr. Bell made it very clear the tuition hike has nothing to do with the Educational Corridor. Foregone taxes, however, will be used to purchase the property.
Mark
Comment by Mark W Altman — May 23, 2008 @ 7:29 am
Mr.Altman;Do you really believe what they’re telling the public?They have to raise the 10 million somehow.
Comment by kageman — May 23, 2008 @ 9:31 am
Hey Mark that was a direct quote from a news article. Politicians lie, dontcha know?
Comment by Pariah — May 23, 2008 @ 9:33 am
I gathered from the coversation last night that they already have 10mil to drop on the project if they have to, they are looking for better funding sources than what they already have.
I have to say that the economic impact of the economic corridor stands to be far far greater than the investment the community is being asked to put forward. In Texas we had a University center much like the education corridor and the economic impact of that facility has been almost immeasurable. I had read one study, that I haven’t been able find on the Internet, unfortunately but it has been in the hundreds of millions of dollars after only being in existance for about 7 years. If they are able to build the water research facility that alone has the potential to be a huge money maker for the area.
Comment by Mark W Altman — May 23, 2008 @ 1:20 pm
“I have to say that the economic impact of the economic corridor stands to be far far greater than the investment the community is being asked to put forward.”
Well then since you HAD to say it maybe you can back that up whith some facts? Maybe? Overpaying for land through a developer intermediary has a certain stench to it that can’t be explained just by the sewage treatment plant being nearby. That stench aside, what are the wealth creation aspects of this grand project?
Comment by Pariah — May 23, 2008 @ 1:26 pm
BTW Mark, parsing your first sentence is a hoot. Shall we?
“I gathered from the coversation last night that they already have 10mil to drop on the project if they have to,…”
Really? Where did they bhide that money? Oh, but then you continue…
“… they are looking for better funding sources than what they already have.”
If they had CASH ON HAND as your preamble suggested, what could be a ‘better’ funding source? Since the second half of your sentence admits that they are evaluating funding sources (as opposed to having cash on hand) then perhaps we can go back to the published quotes of entitlement by their Board members. Tuition hikes and tax hikes will pay off Chesrown.
One of the highest prices ever paid for land in North Idaho. During a real estate market crash. During a time when properties in Chesrown developments are in foreclosure. Good public policy? Or welfare for the rich and thier friends.
Comment by Pariah — May 23, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
I am basing my comments solely on the wording of the panel last night. I am not, nor do I wish to be, privy to the budget for NIC.
As I posted above, about 50 miles north of Houston, TX, there is a University center very much like the proposed education corridor. In just over 5 years the economic impact alone of that UC has become almost immeasurable. This does not factor in the other advantages to the community. Using other projects like this one as a model shows again and again the 10 mil in start-up money is NOTHING compared to the pay-off down the road.
Comment by Mark W Altman — May 23, 2008 @ 1:57 pm
Great comments,Pariah.I’m cynical about the transactions that take place in this CDA area.I bet that LCDC will somehow,be involved in buying the mill site from Chesrown.
Or is that against the rules for a URD entity like LCDC;to acquire land for a college?
LCDC bought the land for the library and paid over $600,000 for that little over 1 acre site.Funny,
how much somebodys willing to pay for land or RE,when it’s not their money that they’re spending.
Comment by kageman — May 23, 2008 @ 2:07 pm
“As I posted above, about 50 miles north of Houston, TX, there is a University center very much like the proposed education corridor.”
Really? How is it like the ‘proposed education corridor’? In acreage? Thatb is really the ONLY detail beyond the price tag for the land we know.
A true research university would be an economic boon, it would also take BILLIONS in tax dollars. Since the total budget of the State of Idaho isn’t near enough to build that, nor is there the political will to spend that in the North, what are the SPECIFIC benefits you claim will come to us for this Inide Connection boondoggle Mister Altman?
“I am not, nor do I wish to be, privy to the budget for NIC.”
But, based on one psuedo public ‘hearing’ you support the project, right?
Comment by Pariah — May 23, 2008 @ 2:08 pm
Mark, are you talking about the known impact of education for the good of a community or are you talking about economic development? I do not believe NIC is or should be in the business of economic development. It’s obvious that the education corridor is about developers making money. If it’s not, then the Trustees have done a poor job showing otherwise, nor do they answer the development question when I’ve asked them.
Don’t you agree that it would be a shame to use 10,000,000 education dollars to help big developers line their pockets instead of spending that money on education? If you agree with that, then why do you support this project?
Comment by Dan — May 23, 2008 @ 2:08 pm
Mark,nobodys trying to gang up on you but,having lived here almost my whole life,I don’t trust what the CDA city council or the school district 271 officials or the NIC board has to say.Why?Because they haven’t earned our trust. Especially, when it comes to fiscal responsibility with taxpayer dollars.
The education corridor might turn out to be a good thing.I just ask for honesty from our elected officials.
Comment by kageman — May 23, 2008 @ 2:26 pm
How about the fact that the monies saved with the EC on the prairie or Post Falls could be used for “EDUCATORS” and other factor pertaining to EDUCATION and not location or buildings!
Comment by concerned citizen — May 23, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
The educational corridor I was referring to is similar in many ways. The footprint is similar, there are six universities that partnered together, they are right next to and partnered with a community college, the value to the community far outweighed the cost of the project. The project allowed people to obtain an education who would never have been able to before the completion of the project.
It seems as though you guys are starting from a position that something unsavory is going on even though there is no evidence, that I have seen, to support your claim. As I understand it, the only person out to make a ton of dough on the front end, is the guy that currently owns the sawmill. As I understand it, the developer is not making anything on the deal on the front end. My guess is either he realizes he stands to make lots of money on the back end by the increase in valuation of his other projects due to direct impact of the education corridor OR he just wishes to be a good steward of the success he has enjoyed. I am certain I cannot peer into his heart to know which it is, or if there is some other reason I am unaware of.
I maintain if you have evidence that something illegal, immoral or unethical is going on in this case or in any other public business; you owe it to all of us to bring it forward. However, to impugn the character of public servants without such proof is wrong. To do so behind the veil of anonymity is beyond the pale.
One last thought. Try to seperate your disagreement with a particular policy or position from an accusation of wrongdoing. Two well-meaning, principled people, can come to different conclusions without either one of them being unethical. Oh yeah, thanks for letting me share my thoughts. 🙂
Comment by Mark W Altman — May 23, 2008 @ 3:24 pm
“The footprint is similar, there are six universities that partnered together, they are right next to and partnered with a community college…”
The difference between the size of Houston, the cooperation of SIX major Universities and this project are huge. What is the name of this project you refer to so that we might do some comparisons?
Comment by Pariah — May 23, 2008 @ 3:31 pm
The University Center in the Woodlands, TX. It may also go by the name of the Montgomery County Campus of The Lone Star Network or something like that. It changed names after we moved here. There is no reason to believe that other universities will not partner with NIC, especially if the waste water research facility comes to fruition. I would argue that the University center near Houston is at a disadvantage NIC doesn’t have, namely there is far less competition for students here than down there.
BTW, there are a number of other projects like ours around the US, two of them were mentioned last night. This seems to be a trend in higher education for a number of financial reasons. those same reasons are what is driving many top fight universities to join university “systems”. Both Texas A&M and UT come to mind as successful systems.
Comment by Mark W Altman — May 23, 2008 @ 4:19 pm
“The University Center at The Woodlands is a cooperative facility that offers classes and degree programs from University of Houston as well as other universities and community colleges in the state.”
Yipee. Their website is poor, they make no claims like you do and why do we need to spend $10,000,000 just for the land before any type of reasonable plan is laid out, before any appraisal is done and during a recession? Are tax and tuition hikes reasonable in the face of so many unanswered questions? If so, why?
Comment by Pariah — May 23, 2008 @ 4:53 pm
I am not sure which website you are referring to and I mentioned that I looked earlier today to find the study I was referring to but I could not find it on the Internet. I had read this study in hard copy a couple of years ago. Either way, there are a number of other university cooperatives around the nation to serve as a model. I just mentioned that there is one near where I grew up. A project of this type very often can be just what the doctor ordered in a struggling or slowing economy. For evidence of this I suggest you look at FDRs New Deal during the Great Depression.
Comment by Mark W Altman — May 23, 2008 @ 5:20 pm
Oh, please. Let’s not divert into a discussion of socialism here. The free market is the best vehicle to revive the economy, not the government. Sure, government can help; but primarily by moving out the way. Government hinderance is bad, but government help (such as the LCDC giving money to deep-pocketed developers) is also bad. Government needs to do what cannot be done by anyone else. In our current system, one of those functions is education. And this topic is about public money spent on education. To cut to the chase: Are 10,000,000 education dollars being spent in the best manner possible here? The answer is “WE DO NOT KNOW.” That’s because the public officials are closed-minded about discussion and options. That’s the issue.
Comment by Dan — May 23, 2008 @ 5:39 pm
My point is merely that collectively we can do what we can’t do individually and that is a legitimate function of government.
There are no certainties in life, but because of other models around the nation, and experts that have been consulted who do not have a dog in the fight, we can be realtively sure this is a good bet.
Comment by Mark W Altman — May 23, 2008 @ 6:55 pm
Yes Mark, experts hired by the side that has “STAKE” in the outcome. Why reword and stage questions if all is on the up and up? Why with the, it worked here and it happened there? This isn’t here OR there. This land is the highest priced EVER in the state of Idaho. During a recession? When prices everywhere else are dropping? I may not be the brightest person, but common sense tells me there is something askew.
“Necessity is the mother of invention.” Plato. It is NOT up to government to find solutions with society in America. Electricity was not discovered by the government nor was the telephone, motor car, pharmaceuticals, etc. Government needs to step back and let the people find the solutions.
The problem is, government IS big business now and is conducted as so.
Comment by concerned citizen — May 23, 2008 @ 8:19 pm
Sorry prices everywhere else are dropping?
Comment by concerned citizen — May 23, 2008 @ 8:20 pm
Mark, let’s be honest about your spin on all of this. You are by vocation a “feel good guy”. You are not going to have much luck on this blog getting folks to bury their head in the sand along with yours or accept all of your generalizations so they can feel good, too. Get real!
Comment by yabetcha — May 23, 2008 @ 9:00 pm
Now, Yabetcha, let’s be careful there, I’m an optimist too. Can’t we expect the best but keep our realism about us as we approach these community issues? Someday maybe we will have open dialog, a true exchange of ideas and officials that represent the wishes of the people…I’m keepin’ the faith!
Comment by mary — May 23, 2008 @ 9:25 pm
Mark, I have a serious question for you. I live in the County. Why is it to my benefit to provide for the economic development of CdA with my tax money? Call me simple minded, but I want the Community College to be just that…a county community college serving the students in the area at an affordable price. Sounds to me like the cost of an education in the county is going to get a lot more expensive due to this project. I really would like a response if you are still out there in cyper space. I really worry for the students and the taxpayers in regard to paying for this project.
Comment by Mama Bear — May 23, 2008 @ 9:58 pm
Mary, same advice for you, get real. You are not a stakeholder. This show is only for stakeholders. You will never get these folks to open their closed minds to anything other than what they have already committed to by being nice to their PR people. Your ideas are worthy of serious consideration by those in power, but they are not interested in other ideas. They play the game thinking you might soften up.
Comment by yabetcha — May 23, 2008 @ 10:31 pm
Mama Bear,
I would argue that given the CDA is the center of the county; further, the education corridor will touch and improve the lives of everyone in North Idaho, either directly or indirectly. If you believe higher education is expensive (even with tuition hikes) you should price out ignorance. The direct economic costs of ignorance are much higher, both to the individual and to society. The indirect costs, those not measurable in dollars, are higher still. The inability to see the world in all its complexity, failure to understand political and social issues, lack of comprehension of the effects of public policy, a limited appreciation of those things that make us human (philosophy, music, art, literature).
We are all interconnected and this interconnectedness is only going to deepen as time goes by. We cannot continue to think of our own little communities, we are all in community. Ideas and information must flow in and out of our county, and a cooperative academic effort is going to help facilitate that flow of information.
As to paying for such a project, I do beleive that with a little faith we will attract state, federal and even corporate dollars that will far exceed the paltry investment we will have to make as a community. I hope that answers your question.
Comment by Mark W Altman — May 23, 2008 @ 10:59 pm
I admire your optimism, Mark.
Comment by Dan — May 23, 2008 @ 11:23 pm
Mark,
You say that CdA is the center of the county. Your center is bordered by a lake, river, sewer treatment plant, a built out over priced residential area with no room for future affordable student housing, limited access, and the list could go on. It is the highest priced land in Idaho in a declining market.
CdA is the center of the universe only to certain people like, the mayor, city council, the LCDC and its “STAKEHOLDERS”!
Yes, we ARE all interconnected, so wouldn’t it be in everyones best interest to look at ALL options? Put it to a vote of “the people” as to where the best location for the EC should be and the best use of tax payers money? Just like in a marraige, there has to be give and take. If one side is doing all of the giving and the other side is doing all of the taking, it results in one being submisive to a master. We are a democracy. We should not be subservient to a government entity. In fact, shouldn’t it be the other way around?
Instead of ripping up the tracks of what used to be the greatest rail system in the world, it could have been used to move people from a beautiful massive complex at Stateline, the prairie or Post Falls to downtown CdA, Sandpoint OR Spokane?
Heck, I could have even pictured access to the Silver Valley and on into Montana via the old Hiawatha But those tracks are LONG gone.
True vision considers ALL options. Not just those of the “STAKEHOLDERS”.
Comment by concerned citizen — May 24, 2008 @ 5:49 am
Mark, I agree we are all connected, but we in the rural areas are often ignored and scorned by the “city” people. Many of us chose to live in rural areas because we identify with rural values. One of these values is EDUCATION. Eduction takes money and traditionally that has been in short supply with my hard working rural friends. Therefore affordable education is important. We increasing see taxation without representation in the county. Taxes shift to the us when LCDC does not pay its share of taxes to the county…we do not vote in city elections. Now NIC wants to take our “foregone taxes” without asking our opinion.
I had an 85 year old rural person finally explain foregone taxes to me in a plain English. He said “we are being used as a savings account” Since the state does not allow agencies to accumulate money they created Foregone Taxes. This entitles you to go after taxes in the form of dipping into the taxpayers pocketbook. The problem with this is we were never told to put money in our personal savings account for your desired expeniture.
Now envision an economic down turn and agencies are short on money because of falling propery values. Envision every agency collecting foregone taxes. The unemployed property owner is at risk of losing their home and propery due to unpaid taxes. No one ever suggested to him to count up the foregone taxes and put that money in a savings account for government.
Most in the rural area also have a vision..we vision old fashion values…straight talk, accountability, living within your means, democracy, and a better life for one’s children. Affordable education is a key to many childrens’ future.
Comment by Mama Bear — May 24, 2008 @ 7:19 am
Mark, I for one commend you for coming on this blog to communicate on the issues. Thank you for communicating. We may disagree, but at least we are talking.
Comment by Mama Bear — May 24, 2008 @ 11:49 am
Mr. Altman.. You approach the issue as though there were no other options for NIC expansion, as if without the Mill site NIC is in limbo. There are many other options that are much more economically attractive that will serve the same population and in many ways better. Why does NIC need expensive lakeside property for expansion when other and better options are available?
Comment by Wallypog — May 24, 2008 @ 8:38 pm