If the Internet were around 250 years ago, would John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay, Gouveuneur Morris, and more all be bloggers? This article says, “Yes!”
From the article:
As Eric Burns described in his fascinating new book, Infamous Scribblers: The Founding Fathers and the Rowdy Beginnings of American Journalism, much of what you read today about blogging’s corrosive effects on public life mirrors what contemporaries thought about the aggressive political commentary of the Founding period.
Good reading.
But, but, but….didn’t we get told here just recently that ‘honorable men’ didn’t ‘hide’ behind psuedonyms? There are good and many varied reasons to cloak identity in the rough and tumble world of politics. Especially for those exposing the misfeances and malfeances of the power elite. Most especially in small town Idaho!
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 10:09 am
I believe in the publics’right to post a comment,anonymously on a blog.I tend to believe that people are more open and honest with their views,if guaranteed anonymity.
IMO-it’s easier when people are FOR something,to post their real name but,when you are questioning something or are AGAINST a certain issue;people will be more reticent and will want privacy for fear of retribution or to be ostracized.It has nothing to do with your convictions on certain issues.
Comment by kageman — June 8, 2008 @ 12:53 pm
Pariah and Kageman,
I have pointed this out before but, while you are certainly correct that most of our founding fathers used pseudonyms the vast preponderance of those names were known to the public and it wasn’t considered honorable by most people’s standards to attack another’s character from such anonymity. Again to attack a political position from the shadows was generally permissible, but not individuals.
As for me, I cannot think of a circumstance when I don’t find it reprehensible.
Comment by Mark W Altman — June 8, 2008 @ 1:50 pm
Nonsense Mark. Thomas Jefferson attacked Geo. Washington regularly and from behind the scenes — while serving in his cabinet! Your history knowledge appears to be poorly formed. Look up, for example, the case of The Wasp.
See VERDICTS OF HISTORY IV: “a scandalous, malicious, and seditious libel”:
This is FAR from an isolated example. It does suffice to render yyour (malformed) opinion that “it wasn’t considered honorable by most people’s standards to attack another’s character from such anonymity.” clearly unsupported by the historical record.
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
One more point Mark, you seem to claim that the CHARACTER of public officials are being maligned here. Any examples you care to illustrate? It seems to me that the ACTIONS of many charged with a public trust are being called into question here, that their “character” is appears to be a strawman of your own construction, at least in the main.
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 2:04 pm
Pariah,
Your very own quotes prove what I am telling you. I am not suggesting they didn’t write hatchet jobs. I am not suggesting they didn’t do so anonymously. I am saying that when they did, most people knew who was behind the hatchet job and the hatchet job did not do the reputation of person writing the hatchet job any favors. Just like today. I for one would not believe you if you told me, “The sun is shining”, if you can’t be honorable to “man up” and OWN that opinion. I do not care where you left your intestinal fortitude, or why you can’t find your intestinal fortitude. I am only suggesting that until you manage to figure out where you put it do not expect me to believe any accusation, argument or assertion you make; regardless of the quality of your proof.
Comment by Mark W Altman — June 8, 2008 @ 2:11 pm
Aced that one, Kageman. It’s this country’s shame that those asking critical questions must hide from certain bullies in charge.
Comment by Dan — June 8, 2008 @ 2:14 pm
P,
One thing I am very happy to admit. Since you and I have begun this debate over posting the personal attacks have largely stopped, so however vehemently you and I (and others) disagree on this issue there has definitely been a benefit to our wrangling. However if you go back not even a week in the postings you will find public officials being accused of breaking the law and all manner of unethical behaviors.
Comment by Mark W Altman — June 8, 2008 @ 2:16 pm
I’d like to re-focus here before we get into a pissing match: Question: although anonymity is required to protect individual identity, can the line be drawn between constructive criticism and personal attack? Or is it such that any real criticism can be too easily deflected by dismissal as a personal attack? Honestly, I see too much of the latter in Coeur d’Alene:
Any dissent or public disagreement I’ve made with City Hall has been met with personal attacks on myself elsewhere, or criticism that I’m “against everything” or somehow ruthlessly and personally attacking a public official for a decision that they’ve made.
Comment by Dan — June 8, 2008 @ 2:23 pm
Dan, et.al,
None of us would have to hide if we all REFUSED to hide. Then again I guess I should remember my Shakespeare, “Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.”
Gotta go shoot some hoops with my son.
Comment by Mark W Altman — June 8, 2008 @ 2:23 pm
So show those posts. Are they attacks on character or attacks on illegal actions? Did someone say (for example) that so and so is a bad person or did they say that so and so ignored the open meeting law?
Your strawmen are looking light there Mark. Almost as light as your historical scholarship.
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 2:24 pm
I too would like to learn, Mark, where you think commenters on this site were attacking anyone’s personal character. I mean that sincerely. If any of us are doing so without realizing it, your specific examples would be a helpful lesson. I await any examples you can offer.
Comment by mary — June 8, 2008 @ 2:39 pm
“None of us would have to hide if we all REFUSED to hide.”
Platitudes Mark. And erroneous ones. Real people lose their jobs over these issues, real people get hurt. Are you willing to stand up for them? Support them and their families after the abuse ruins their income streams and reputations?
You denigrate with words those you disagree with and then decry those who point out the unethical and illegal actions of those with whom you are allied. You call this “honorable”. An interesting lexicon you use there Mr. Altman. Enjoy the “hoops”.
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
My suggestion is that you NOT hold your breath. You look great in any color but blue is the least of them.
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 2:41 pm
If you read the editorials on the
CDA Press website,you will see no name by that editorial.Why?Are we to
assume that the main Editor is writing these? Isn’t there other editors that write editorials,like a guest editorialist? Are they too afraid to put their names these articles?
Here we have a columnist,who is decrying the fact that people post anonymously and yet his own paper posts editorials anonymously.I guess I don’t have to believe anything these editorials say,because they have no name attached.
Comment by kageman — June 8, 2008 @ 3:06 pm
I wonder if Mark can post any primary source data for his allegations regards the midnset of the Founding Fathers? I enjoy history and would enjoy seeing those posts.
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 3:11 pm
Pariah,
1. I give you post 24 in this very thread. Written by who you might ask? Well written by YOU of course!
More thoughts.
Christie is paid with tax dollars. She serves on TWO public taxing district boards. It is unseemly at the least for her to so easily and breezily dismiss the taxpayers from her considerations.
Her apparent admission of breaking the Open Meetings law ought to put her job in Law Enforcement in jeopardy. I realize she isn’t a real street cop, but she is sworn, carries a badge and a gun and ought to be held to a higher standard.
Comment by Pariah — June 3, 2008 @ 6:11 pm
Post 26:
Mama Bear,
I agree. Sorry though, Mark represents the pretty people, he talks their talk. They are in control, we are not.
Unless people realize what liars they have in office and vote against them, nothing will change. The entitled pretty people will win.
Comment by Pariah — June 3, 2008 @ 7:38 pm
Post 6 from School District Questions abound:
Unreal. It seems like SD 271 is ready to turn into Enron North Idaho! How unbelievable.
Comment by Pariah — June 7, 2008 @ 1:14 pm
Post 33. Mark Altman, man of great honor. You told me flat out that NIC HAD the $10 million it needed to purchase the MIll site. But this morning we read that the city and NIC are in collusion to strike a sweetheart 99 year land lease deal at a pitiful rate to obtain $1.3 million for that purchase. Did you know this earlier? Is that what you honorably meant when you wrote that NIC “had” the money for the mill purchase?
I’ll ask you again. Does NIC have $10,000,000.00 sitting in a bank account that is 100% available for the purchase of the Mill site? I did not ask if they could raise the money through horrible asset management.
Comment by Wallypog — June 8, 2008 @ 8:40 am
Post 4 from “Public Decisions, Private Places”:
Thnk you Gary. It’s a graphic display of [public] corruption and i’m pretty sure Coeur d’Alene is the poster child. Although if WE THE PEOPLE held a meeting of that nature it would be called conspiracy and would be punishable by jail.
Comment by casper — June 3, 2008 @ 7:00 am
The above are just examples and only examples from those who post anonymously.
Comment by Mark W Altman — June 8, 2008 @ 3:19 pm
As a side note to Kageman, I have often been a vocal opponent of anonymous posting in the Press as well but obviously that is an argument I haven’t won.
Comment by Mark W Altman — June 8, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
Ah, so public officials must needs be exempt from criticism or else I am accused of calling their character in question? Sorry Mark, violations of open meetins laws are ACTIONS. Aside from my point about the ACTIONS of Sgt. Trustee/Trustee Woods, whom else are you claiming I have slandered? Your men of straw remain light, as light as your apparent knowledge of history. As light as your time spent with family shooting the hoops.
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 3:23 pm
We played three games of 21, I got tired. He is getting better the older he gets or the older I do one or the other! 🙂
Comment by Mark W Altman — June 8, 2008 @ 3:29 pm
I would argue suggesting a law enforcement officer is breaking the law without proof and a legal judgement is out of bounds. Suggesting public officials are guilty of consipracy and corruption without the same is a “no-no”. “Turning NI into another Enron” without owning the accusation is bad form too. Hold up enough hay and it gets heavy.
Comment by Mark W Altman — June 8, 2008 @ 3:33 pm
LOL, suggest away Mark. The fact that you and Christie agree that “the deal is done” suggests strongly that, well, the deal is done. No public vote, no debate.
You might want to peruse the story of the University Place scandal and try to maybe imagine that the same people might be involved in the North Idaho education corridor.
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 3:37 pm
Say Mark can you post any primary source data for your allegations regards the midnset of the Founding Fathers? I enjoy history and would enjoy seeing those posts.
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 3:38 pm
Hey P,
I have a couple of books (secondary sources) but I would have to go to a museum or research library back East to have accesss to primary source material.
Comment by Mark W Altman — June 8, 2008 @ 3:40 pm
Mark, I will agree with you that the comment by Pariah about “liars” was over the line. I’d like to not see terms like that used unless hard evidence is with it. Your comment, Mark, about voters being unintelligent and uneducated was equally as insulting, and doesn’t belong on this site either, along with your personal slams against the character of anyone not wishing to use their name. The rest of the comments seem to speak to the perceived behavior of elected official, without accusing them of breaking a law.
Let’s be careful out there, people!
Comment by mary — June 8, 2008 @ 3:49 pm
” have a couple of books (secondary sources)…”
Cool, their titles?
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 3:58 pm
“Mark, I will agree with you that the comment by Pariah about “liars” was over the line.”
Really? We clearly have liars in office. “No taxpayer money will be used for the Kroc Center”, “Lakes Middle School will get remodelled”.
Both documented LIES. Moreover, my comment was general in nature, not specific to any one elected official and therefore fails the strawman test Mark posited.
No Mary, I stand by my comments. CDA has liars in office.
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 4:00 pm
I don’t know if these public officials,who made the comments Pariah mentions ‘lied’.They may have
believed what they were saying at the time,but they did break their promises,going back on their words they made to the public.
Instead of using the word (lied)maybe,the word ‘mislead’ would be more appropriate.
Comment by kageman — June 8, 2008 @ 5:04 pm
Early in our country they passed and enforced sedition laws to incarcerate those making public statements that were determined to be too contrary. So when people spoke up they were subject to formal and quite serious punishment. The sedition laws were passed under John Adams and ended under Jefferson.
CdA is a relatively small town currently experiencing a monetary power play vortex. When there’s big money involved people do not like their plans upset and they do protect themselves. They do remember those speaking against them and they will take retribution given the chance. They do remember those who agree and support them and will succor them given the chance.
Lastly, Altman, you purport to take the moral high ground while you loosely quote your colleagues without checking the facts. You have been bitten more than once when those facts were inaccurate or vague. That people like me point that out is not “name calling”. Those actions speak to a character who is acting as a mouthpiece for the system, a puppet. The city, NIC and SD271 is conducting themselves in ways that you yourself would not personally do. How can it then be considered acceptable for them? Do yourself a favor and think independently, get your facts independently and speak to what you know to be certain. You will find the going much easier and your honor less impinged upon.
All anybody here wants is information, clear, plain and simple.
Comment by Wallypog — June 8, 2008 @ 5:19 pm
I remember one time ,I wrote a letter to the editor back in 1993.The letter was concerning Mayor Ray Stone who was running for
re-election at the time.There was a brouha over him getting special treatment from the police,when he was stopped for a DUI.
One day, I received a call from a CDA Press subscriber who didn’t exactly agree with what I had to say in the letter.I was almost expecting this person to come by my residence.
I almost felt that my privacy was violated and that was one time I wished I could have remained anonymous.
So,I’m all for remaining anonymous,
when posting comments on a blog.
Comment by kageman — June 8, 2008 @ 6:07 pm
When I asked questions, it caused chaos in my business which inturn almost cost me my marriage. My spouse asked me to quit “making waves” and to this day does not even like me responding on opencda.com or in the press blog.
So, I too am all for remaining anonymous.
Comment by concerned citizen — June 8, 2008 @ 6:23 pm
“All anybody here wants is information, clear, plain and simple.”
Most. Some want to obfuscate. To hide. To raise a cloud.
Comment by Pariah — June 8, 2008 @ 7:13 pm
To All,
I need to tell everyone thanks for having me, I have had a great time bantering and debating back and forth with all of you. Alas, all good things must come to an end. While I will continue to do my column for the Press, my family and I are moving back down to Texas near the Austin area. My Dad has had a couple of heart attacks since we have been here and my wife’s folks and my mom aren’t getting any younger (I don’t guess any of us are).
If am not on here much it is due to packing, selling our house, etc. I will check in with all of you from time to time so I can stay up on happenings and my many friends here. You will likely never know how much I truly wish the best for every one of you.
P,
The books I have that I can recommend are: George Washington by William Randall, John Adams by David McCullough, a work on his son John Quincy Adams that I can’t get my hands on at the moment to give you the author, The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt by Edmund Morris (you will thank me forever if you get your hands on this book!), Dearest Friend by Lynne Withey (this is a book about Abigail Adams- VERY GOOD), The First American by H.W. Brands (about Ben Franklin, another great read), I have a book here about Alexander Hamilton that again I can’t find, must be packed already so I’ll try to get you the author later. I have a book I am reading right now that you really should check out, The Faiths of our Fathers by Alf J. Mapp. I also have a great many works on Lincoln as I am something of a Lincolnophile. Hope that helps.
Comment by Mark W Altman — June 8, 2008 @ 8:55 pm
Wow. I’m floored. You’re not moving just to get away from Pariah, are you? 😉
Seriously, I was hoping we’d get a chance to meet. You’ve had a tremendous impact on this community and have helped out in a variety of positive ways. While we disagree on some things, I believe we both want to work toward what’s positive for the community. Your track record on that behalf is impeccable. You will be missed.
I’ll be at the levy meeting on Tuesday. If you’re there, let me know and I’d love to meet you in person. Until then, or later, my best to you and your family. I admire you greatly for putting your family first. They are, indeed, what is most important in this life. If only this country valued family more than possessions, what a great culture we would be indeed!
Comment by Dan — June 8, 2008 @ 9:05 pm
Best of luck to you and your family, Mark. Thanks for the interaction here, it has been interesting. Please remember the internet still works in Texas, so you can continue to follow what goes on around here, and share your opinions on OpenCdA. Safe travels.
Comment by mary — June 8, 2008 @ 9:58 pm
Also, right now I’m reading “Lincoln” by David Donald and am enjoying it very much.
Comment by mary — June 8, 2008 @ 10:01 pm
Mark,
Is there sunshine in Texas? Do they have summer there? If so, please take me with you. Just kidding!
I am not saying that I agree with you on everything. How boring would that be? 🙂
All kidding aside, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to rethink some of my own thoughts. I DO believe you to be a man of honor and it has been very enlightening to have you share your opinion and knowledge.
I would like to wish you and your family health, long life, happiness and prosperity.
Have a safe trip my friend.
Sincerely,
Concerned citizen
Comment by concerned citizen — June 9, 2008 @ 6:28 am
Mark,
Good luck and God speed on your journey. Thanks for the reading list. Do seek out primary source data, you will find that your view of the Founding Fathers and their ‘gentility’ is a tad bit colored. Nor has your argument obscured the reality of life in North Idaho (or elsewhere). The whistleblower is almost always vicimized and sometime in a very bad way.
Comment by Pariah — June 9, 2008 @ 3:41 pm